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Poster: bericb Date: Feb 25, 2005 5:44am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

hello all..
I have been part of a few discussions regarding this topic, and have come to a conclusion.

I agree with twatts in his point that this is called an "archive" .. not a jamband mp3 server.
If you are going to allow the lossy formats, then don't call yourself an "archive". I was not under the impression that the archive was started just be a "promotional tool" for bands.

The creation of lossy formats is in the hands of the artists and the uploader as of now, however, the uploader is not allways the person who recorded the show. If a band allows mp3's and the taper who tapes them does not want mp3's made and hosted, what control does he have over someone else uploading the show and allowing the lossy formats? The answer is none. I think this is what the gripe is about from tapers. I have a simple solution.. If a taper never wants to see his recordings hosted on the archive in mp3 format(if the band allows it), then he/she should never ever ever give his tapes away. No trades, no patches, no nothing. Give your tape to the band if they ask, and if it ends up on the archive in mp3 then owell, you're SOL. Other than that you can't stop it, no matter what kind of disclaimers you put in the text file.

I personally dont care one bit for the mp3 listener and have no sympathy for his/her inability to learn the aspects of lossless compression and its ability to be further compressed to mp3 if he/she wants it.

-------------------------------------
_MY OPINION ON (the majority of) MP3 LISTENERS_

They are people listening to the efforts of musician and a soundguy and a taper without giving anything back to the community whatsoever.. Taping has (untill the archive) allways gone hand and hand with trading.. ie: if your a taper and want other shows, well you have to trade your shows to get them.. or if your a trader/collector, you must trade tapes to get tapes..

This doesnt happen anymore..
mp3 users do not trade, they do not contribute, and therfore should have to work a bit to get the music.. ie: figuring out lossless compression, downloading, and ripping mp3's on their own time..
----------------

To get back to the topic.. I feel the archive has done wonders for some lesser known bands, however, you "might" find some tapers out there who do not want their recordings hosted in a lossy format. Since they have no control over that, I guess you would see those tapers NEVER making their recordings see the light of day(publicly traded etc), which in turn would slow down the uploads to the "archive". Some tapers spend thousands of dollars on their hobby to make recordings sound a certain way, so dont be surprised if they "never" let them sound like an mp3.

I say do away with the lossy formats on the "archive"..

thanks..

ericB







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Poster: thelandlady Date: Feb 25, 2005 7:38am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

These generalizations about the mp3 listener should really be re-thought before they escape to the keyboard. I resent these comments about mp3 listeners as I listen to them all the time. I also give back to all the tapers I have ever met. Helping them setup their equipment, help them out with tapes, trading, and providing means for others to get a hold of the music. Do I trade any mp3 files...no...really you should not generalize people into a single group.

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Poster: bericb Date: Feb 25, 2005 8:20am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

I understand your POV..

I, however, feel that if you want to listen to music in the format of your choosing, then BUY A RIG AND TAPE YOURSELF.

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Poster: SFSpearit Date: Feb 25, 2005 1:25pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

Dude you come off like such a elitist taper snob!
Seriously. Check yourself spitting such venom is bad karma. I disagree with 99% of what you have said. Here is my first gripe.
Why should people have to "work for their music"? Music is to be shared and enjoyed. Everyone Deserves Music! not just the people who toil for it. Please! music is not work! I already spend 40 hours in the "taper mine"
As for the "jamband mp3 server" aspect, I think of it this way. The archive is like a library. When you go to the library you get to check out materials. You need to have different formats available so that those materials are available to everyone. A variety of formats is a GOOD THING. Just like you might go to a regular library and make a photocopy of a page of a book. Maybe you do not need the phsycial book, just the information contained. To force everyone to download lossless formats makes no sense to me and just wastes bandwidth and turns away people who would seek this music. I know a lot of people who stream music from the LMA. No polution. Sure the quality is not the same but who is to say that lossless is going to sound that much better on a crappy computer speaker?

The one thing you are right about about is that we do not "Trade anymore" FTP and broadband has take alot of that away. It is sad, but it is time to move on.

Lossless and Lossy side by side is a GOOD thing.


PS The tapers do have control over MP3 of their sources on the LMA. How many shows have ended up in MP3 that the taper did not intend. I bet is is a very small number. Correct me if I am wrong.

Relax man. Life is too short for this kind of thing.

Peace

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Poster: thelandlady Date: Feb 28, 2005 5:30am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

I would actually do this if I could afford to go out and buy a decent rig. Since I don't I do my best to help the tapers out there. Hell, I was at a show once and ran out and bought the dude 3 tapes because he ran out. Luckily it was a festival show that ran all day and I knew the guys taking tickets. They let me back in.

All I can say is I do what I can to help out. If I could go out and buy a rig I WOULD. I don't have the time or money to go out and tape as much as I would like to. That is why if I see a taper at show I always offer them help to set their rig up or give them tapes if I can. Personally that is far more than what most people do when they see a taper at a show. I give as much as I can...

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Feb 25, 2005 9:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

the uploader is not allways the person who recorded the show. ...what control does [taper] have over someone else uploading the show and allowing the lossy formats? The answer is none.

The answer is not "none". Tapers (and bands) are welcome to write to admins about a troublesome item so we can talk it over and work things out. We have done this already over the past year.

you "might" find some tapers out there who do not want their recordings hosted in a lossy format. Since they have no control over that, I guess you would see those tapers NEVER making their recordings see the light of day(publicly traded etc), which in turn would slow down the uploads to the "archive".

Please, I am not asking for "might" and "guess" hypotheticals in this thread. I am requesting real data on which to base our analysis of how this is working out for everyone. Can you point to some real life examples where this has occurred with the LMA? Thanks if so, I really would like to hear about them!

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-02-25 17:37:34

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Poster: bericb Date: Feb 25, 2005 3:28pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

heynow..

I appreciate the reply.. I think the crux of this lies in the reason that some tapers actually bring equiptment to a show. They do so to capture the event, as best they can, in order to closely reproduce it for playback. I, like many other DAUD tapers, prefer not to tape from a soundboard, even if it is offered. They are mostly lifeless, dry, and lay complete disregard for the ambiant texture of the show. The sonic characteristics of "audience" tapes(recordings)lend themselves verry poorly to compression schemes that are lossy, and render them devoid one hundred percent of what its intention was in the first place... to reproduce the show. Mp3 schemes and the like strip all that is wonderful in an audience tape. Why anyone would want to listen to it is, to me, a compete waste of time. I am not talking about soundboards or matrix tapes here, so dont confuse my intent here. I am strictly talking about audience far field, onstage, and multi mic setup tapes.

I am all for making live music available through the internet. The creation of digitized masters in which every copy of it sounds just like it is amazing to me still, especially considering I was listening to 10th gen audiences tapes in the mid eighties. The ability for anyone and everyone to be able to hear a master audience tape is a great acheivement in the form of the art. But that is where the problem creeps in. Technology and Art sometimes dont see eye to eye, and "I" think that this is such a case.

And no, I cannot provide any "evidence" of any tapers wishes in terms of the "archive" being violated. I do remember a couple threads here and there about some problems that were fixed, but other than that .. none. Thank you for pointing out my errors in my reference. I hope the archive will continue to honor the wishes of the tapers providing the material hosted there, for I would hate to see the uploads dwindle in what is a potentially spectacular resource.

Keep up the good work..

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Feb 25, 2005 8:59pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

I was not under the impression that the archive was started just be a "promotional tool" for bands.

Just wanted to address this one extra point: You're right, it wasn't started for that! There have been a few "side effects" of the project and this is an interesting and fun one. If artists can get an extra benefit out of this besides having their music be preserved for the historic record, well that's great! :)

That bands see this benefit is one more point on the side of the "trade friendly = good" argument that we traders are always pushing.

Now that we've been here a couple years, another interesting effect has come out of this. IIRC there have been a few bands who said yes when they were active, and maybe publicity consideration was a part of that. But since then, they've broken up. The archive section now remains as the historical record of the defunct band. (Likewise, those Wayback links have turned out pretty useful for some former official websites!)

I can't think of some of those band names off the top of my head, but can edit this if I do (or if someone knows one, post a reply.)

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffTyler Date: Feb 26, 2005 12:46am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

The Troys were a sisters sing/songwriter / punk group in san diego. they were signed in 2001 and 2002/2003 did full band shows under their label contract. but they also enjoyed doing acoustic shows without their band at small coffee shops. THe label didn't like that they were doing the 'non-band' shows and they were dropped in the big 'label clean-out' of 2003. the girls broke up and decided to do solo stuff, and prob won't play together again for a long time (if ever). the shows archived here give a great record of their sound while they were together.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffTyler Date: Feb 26, 2005 1:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Discuss: Evaluation Time for LMA Deriver (mp3, ogg generator)

also, Zwan (former Smashing Pumpkins' lead singer 'billy corgan' project) broke up in early 2004. so thier continualy contributed section is a testament to their sounds while together.